Recently, I [Laura-Elizabeth Rice, director for “The War in Heaven”] sat down with Catherine McRae, our puppet director, to discuss making and working with puppets. HIDden has never really worked with puppets before, so this has been an exciting addition to our productoin. I’m deeply grateful for all the work Catherine is doing, as the puppet demons really are adding a lot to our Hell, and also for everything that I’m learning from her along the way. I want to preface this interview by candidly admitting that I probably didn’t know enough about the incredibly nuanced world that is puppetry as we started this show, and Catherine’s contributions have not only therefore been vital to the success of our puppets, they’ve also made me grow in perspectives as well. I hope you’ll find this interview as utterly fascinating and eye-opening as I did! [Note: this interview has been edited for brevity.]

So tell me about your background and what got you started in all of this. 

My background is as an actor, drama facilitator, puppeteer. And I’ve been interested in storytelling in one way or another for as long as I can remember. I did all the stuff you would expect- youth theatre, amateur dramatics, and went to uni to study it and uni was where I was formally introduced to puppetry. Since graduating, I’ve had various life experiences, which have led me to focusing on specific types of puppetry or specific communities I want to work with. 

What got you into theatre in the first place? 

I was very, very lucky that theatre was never uncommon or strange to me. My parents introduced me to theatre quite young so the option to get involved in theatre was always there for me. And I never lose sight of the fact that that is an enormous privilege, to have a family that are able to regularly take their kids to the theatre. Growing up, I also got to meet lots of different people from different backgrounds, which highlighted to me that actually, you are in quite a privileged position to just think that going to the theatre is a normal thing to do because there are clearly lots of people who don’t!

Why puppets specifically?

I grew up in the late 90s, early noughties, so there was quite a lot of puppetry around, particularly in British children’s television, because although you did get animation and CGI, it wasn’t anything like it is today. So [puppets] have always been in my life to some extent. The thing I find interesting about puppets is the reaction you get from other people. It’s often a very strong reaction- sometimes it’s a negative reaction, and sometimes it’s a positive reaction- but you always get a very strong reaction to puppets so as someone who’s interested in stories and storytelling, that was an interesting tool. And I also found myself focusing on puppetry for adults, [which] has an additional challenge…. You generally have to do a lot of work beforehand to suspend their disbelief and get them to believe in the puppet on stage, but when you do it, you end up with some really powerful pieces of theatre. I’ve seen productions that have used puppets to talk about really hard-hitting topics like the benefit system…. it gives you a way in to difficult topics that people may not connect with as much.

So what do you think it is about puppets that makes people react so-?

I use the word viscerally; whether good or ill- I think it depends on whether you hate them or like them. There’s a lot of iconography around puppets being in horror films and used for nefarious means, so I can understand the fear around puppets. And particularly the background [puppets] had: when shadow puppets were being made in places like China, [historically] it was an alchemist who would do them, so there was a sense of magic and something ethereal about them. If you like them, there’s something quite innocent about them, something quite open and vulnerable… and I think people respond to that really well.

When is the earliest puppetry that we’re aware of? I assume it’s going way back…

Something like 87 BC… they have always been around in some shape or form, particularly shadow puppetry. Then you’ve got marrionettes, which are a type of puppetry that came much later. There’s a lot of different types of puppetry that have originated from different spaces over time, but puppetry as a whole is something we’ve always been doing. 

What’s the best project that you’ve done? What’s your favourite among things you’ve worked on? 

A show I did for my dissertation when I was at university about fan culture and mental illness. I was doing a lot of the work myself and putting in the hours for that. There’s lots of other things I’ve done since that I’m very proud of. But I’d say that one is was sort of a big one, so to speak. 

What is the best thing about puppets and what’s the worst?

I think the best thing about puppets for me is getting to play with them [puppets]! I’m one of those people who, when I see a puppet, and I start playing with a puppet, I find it very hard to put it down. On several occasions, we’ve been playing with puppets, and someone has said, leave the puppets, come and sit down. And everybody else would dump their puppets and go and sit down. I would walk over with my puppet still breathing, still acting, and sit it on my lap as if it was listening to the conversation because I couldn’t put it down… I’d say the worst thing about working with puppets is that people have a lot of misunderstandings about puppetry and what is required to make a good piece of puppetry, it can sort of be trivialized and turn into people seeing puppets as glorified props and actually it’s a lot more complicated and requires a lot more skill than that!

I was really fascinated when you had [our puppet] Beelzebub in the rehearsal “breathing.” I know you’d mentioned breathing and I was thinking [of] our breathing and seeing you move him I realised he also breathes! I think my next question follows on from that- what do you think people should know about puppetry that they don’t know?

It’s more complicated than it looks, definitely. With certain types of puppetry people [realise] it’s complicated quite quickly. There are other types where people think it’s easy, but in practice, it’s actually really complicated. With shows like War Horse, the amount of physical stamina you need in order to do that is often understated…! Anyone can pick up an object and make it talk, but if you want people to believe it’s not a piece of paper talking, that takes a lot more work and a lot more skill.

 What are the biggest challenges in working with puppets? 

It would be the same kind of thing. Particularly if I’m the one puppeteering them it’s making sure that I get the support that I need. It’s not so much of a thing on this [project] because I’m not going to be operating the puppets so I can ensure that the actors are actually having enough time with [them] and they are getting the direction from me, but there have been times [when I’ve] needed that sort of guidance- when you’re behind the puppet often you’re not seeing what the audience is seeing, so having that outside eye is really helpful. The real challenge is the misunderstandings that other creatives can have about puppets and how that shows up in the rehearsal space.

Do you have a favourite puppet that you’ve ever made or worked with? 

Hopefully it’ll be one I’m making currently! 

Do you get emotionally attached to them once you’ve made them? 

You definitely get emotionally attached if you’re working with them and performing with them. But I think the connection is sometimes a bit different. A lot of the shadow puppetry I’ve done, for example, has been on film…. and it’s a lot more of a practical mindset. Obviously, there’s elements of creativity in there, but in terms of the emotional connection, it’s much more practical. Whereas if you’re having to physically inhabit something for a period of time you’re going to get emotionally attached…. There’s a difference between types in how you relate. I think particularly when you’re having to infuse an object with a character it’s-  I’m going slightly off topic here but I did a module at university, between the creative writing  and acting students. [We were] studying a play where a character kills another charecter, and there was this very strong divide of the writers going, “This person is evil, this person brings this girl to a place with the intention of killing her.”  The actors very much went, “No, this person is triggered during the conversation. Yes, he does a horrible thing, but ultimately he’s not an evil person,” and … the conclusion I came to was that writers can write particularly evil characters without inhabiting them, whereas if you have to inhabit that person night after night, you have to really think about what their thought process is and so you have to come up with some rationale for why you do evil things. All of that to say that when you’re having to really get into the character… there is that emotional attachment because you’ve been through it with that puppet or with that character.

Do you have any advice for anybody who wants to know more about puppets or get involved with them?

 I’d say just start playing with stuff. [Don’t assume] that you have to have a full-size Jim Henson-style puppet in order to start. It’s something that you can just play with. Practising the technique is super easy. Just grab whatever you’ve got and try and infuse it with a character. And there are some brilliant resources out there on puppetry. A lot of people will do a beginner’s course on puppetry. But also there’s a book called A Practical Guide to Puppetry by Mark Down that’s got lots of stuff about puppetry. I’d also say go and see as much puppetry as you can…. I guess it’s the same for every creative art: See it and do it. 

What kind of things go into creating puppets, designing them, ideas, processes? 

It changes, depending on the project…. When you’re making a puppet you have to think: what is the style of the production, are you making cute or scary puppets, animals or humans, performing indoors or outdoors, is it a large group or a small group- that will then impact how big your puppet needs to be, what types of materials you need, who’s actually puppeteering them. There’s quite a lot that goes into it. 

Thank you so much! This was so interesting! I’ve definitely learned a lot, I’m sure I’ll learn a lot more as the show goes on!

If you’d like to learn more about Catherine’s work, please follow her on Instagram (@cathymcraee). And come see The War in Heaven’s puppets live on 28 June and 5 July with the York Mystery Plays!